Curse

DarrenJasper · Jun 15, 2005, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talesin Darkbriar

Hail and well met,

All the things listed in the OP as "must haves" already exist in other online offerings; EQ, EQ2, DAoC, WoW, et al.
I've played them all, and they collectively "suck" to put it politely. Some much more than others...but to each his own. That they all charge a monthly fee in addition is simply insult upon injury. (The real question is, why doesn't Guild Wars? It's a better game.)
Their PvP is a joke, it's all about gear - no real skill required.
The guild with the most-twinked out players wins - period.

Combine that with monopolies on contested spawns (where the good stuff drops) and its simply a paid competition between the haves and the have nots.

This over time has become accepted by players as the norm, and to show how far the gaming psyche has degenerated; people now clamor for "more grinding," "more 733tness" and "more farming." These are negatives friends - not must haves...more levels doesn't make a better game - it's what you can do with where you are at that makes the difference.
...
For those of you reading this with a vacant stare on your face, all I can say is
You just don't get "it."

What these gamers crave is an unfair advantage. That is also why exploits, bots and macros are so popular and persistent- the desire to win at all costs overrides reason, good sportsmanship, and fair play. Call it a microcosm of professional sports...

GW has done something that none of the above games have been able to produce: A decent storyline that draws you in, and makes you (well myself anyways) care about the characters, and missions that truly require skill - not rote "lather, rinse, repeat" routines that pass for skill in the other games.
Why do you think most of the server "sticks" at the ascension?
Modicum of skill required...

I wouldn't change a thing; and as far as the OP is concerned;
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Yeah, I agree with Talesin on this matter.

dogbreath17 · Jun 15, 2005, 10:01 AM // 10:01

I am grateful for the responses. I feel like providing a recap. Most have been rather good posts describing in detail how their playing experience has left them feeling.

These individuals with much detail have to some degree validated my assertions regarding current GW game status. Their posts are obvious to the reader and they actually complement each other and further highlight the ideas behind my original post.

What I have learned from reading the posts further illustrates the plight of the PvPer. What I have read further confirms other sources and my own experience and is actually very disturbing because it’s the PvP community, which is going to make or break this game. I say that because the game developers are focused on them. They want them and they are trying to shape the game for them, which is understandable the game is called Guild Wars.

The fact PvPers have to do 200+ hours to unlock several characters for PvP is a major disaster. That was one of the original points I included in my original post and its not going anywhere. The fact future expansions will by all accounts require more PvE for PvPers is not good either for this segment of the community.

Now PvE is grinding and not farming when it is not fun anymore or serves a purpose. This is up to the individual but even PvEers I imagine think grinding for unlocking only is rather pointless. This current situation appeals to no one.

Now some people have offered suggestions even compromises and expressed similar viewpoints about PvE and PvP. Others have perhaps not been so constructive. With this new game style that GW presents its seems to also have given heart or ideology to a breed of player who before perhaps never had a voice.

Apparently there are those who want to play a fantasy rpg with quests and items but don’t want it to be too difficult or time consuming. However most everything has costs in time and most things in life require commitment and investment. The game goes against conventional wisdom but at what cost?

The notion that everyone should be handicapped to the lowest common denominator is an appealing idea I suppose in philosophy class but most of the time, time spent equals often the reward. Training is practice, leveling is skills, skills is playing, time is playing and it could be in PvP or PvE environments. I don’t see how you can effectively reduce that requirement or necessity of time investment to zero and still have a compelling game.

Perhaps those who log more hours doing PvP should have a handicap like –10% hp for every 100 hours logged to give newbies a chance? Now that seems absurd to most and it is but it’s an extension of the mindset that time investment should not engender advantage.

Now most posts have given a lot and repeatedly attempted to describe in detail the situation. Some of these posters represent the extreme and to our gain show what many of the general populace might be thinking a month or two from now.

My solution is PvP and PvE separation. PvP would be capped, UAS, UAR, UAWU and its all skill based. The level in PvP is not important it’s only important that everyone has access to the same. Ultimately in PvP it would be the team members and strategy, selection of classes and skills that would win victories. I think that is what PvPers want.
Currently this segment of the community is being forced to PvE and many after many hours of play are actually some of the most hardcore PvEers but not by choice. It’s an odd situation created by the necessity of the flawed game design. The end result will be to create a hostile and burnt out PvP community. The expansion will only add fuel to the flames. This is actually a sick situation and unhealthy for a hardcore segment of the fan base not to mention the other total lack of PvP rewards currently.

Now in PvE the situation would be different perhaps a level 25-30 level cap again its rather meaningless but GOALS of some kind are again needed here. PvEers need long-term goals to build their characters too. This segment of the community often makes fan sites, posts at forums, creates templates and is interested in LORE. This segment of the community is interested in item gaining, and creating unique characters. GW currently is in a sick situation because it is able to provide this community nothing in what is considered traditional rpg gaming goodness. There is a reason RPGers, PvEers think this way it is because they love it.

Perhaps a little example:

PvP only characters (Pure PvP)
So many victories give titles. So many victories give unique armor. So many victories give banners, flags, and capes; things for the Guildhall.

Now PvP characters and PvE characters would not fight in HOH or other combat but could belong to same guildhall and interface at the guildhall. PvPers would bring honor to a guild through PvP victories.

*PvP would only fight other PvP characters

PvE only characters
PvE characters would fight in the lands around the Guildhall for the honor of the guildhall. They would fight PvE mobs, Boss PvE mobs that would bring honor and recognition to the guild.

*PvE could fight other PvE characters or interestingly not, perhaps not allowed

On another note, which I want delve to far into:
Actually without attempting to get to off topic they should just quick fix and auto everyone to one of 400 guilds perhaps max. With 500 people in a guild and once below 200 it’s merged with another guild of similar rank. I have no idea but something other than the current situation has to be done because 50,000 guilds of 4 people each is way off manageability.

So far I have been talking about PvE and PvP not even really talking about the Guild structure, which is a complete mess for about 80% of the community I imagine.
Guild wars PvP consists for most people of random PvP and association with a guild of not many active members or purpose or structure.

If we assume everything is correct and fine then PvEers should just enjoy making new characters and doing the storyline/quests over. Which would be similar to playing a single player rpg over. That could work many people play single player games over with different characters. I think its just people want more, want more of what they associate with PvE computer online games. The point is once a player plays the game 2-3 times through they probably will be sick of it unless they have something to look forward too. Gaining more skills, more runes and buying more useless armor for 15K+ probably will not do the trick.

The truth is for PvEers it’s building a character over a long period of time. Items and skills and new challenges play a big part. Most PvE games require a commitment of regular play hence the desire to play regularly. GW PvE shows no signs of requiring regular play and in actuality does not reward regular play. Since it is these hardcore PvEers who often create the backbone of any long lasting community I feel concern.

PvPers are a different lot and require new and interesting challenges to keep them busy and tallying up deaths vs killed. Tournaments, meaningful guild ratings, recognition are important. With the current Guild structure this is impossible, with the current game design this is impossible. This community of PvPers has supported many games with just interest in PvP in other formats but if they cannot ultimately do it when they want and how they want they will leave. This community of players can also provide a strong backbone for GW but forced PvE will kill them.

Now if you really don’t care about hardcore PvP or hardcore PvE you are in the middle and minority. It’s these two groups hardcore PvP and PvE that define any genre and every game. The middlemen the casual gamers who want everything equal without effort or time investment perhaps is who the game was designed but they only represent 1/3rd or less of the fan base. It is illogical and flawed to attempt to appease them at the risk of alienating the hardcore players.

Hence my original post.

Snowman · Jun 15, 2005, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deagol

I have no problems with cosmetic levels. Some obnoxious players would insist they were "better" than the rest of us because their cosmetic level were higher (where all it really proves is that they have less of a life), but than again, they find ways to be obnoxious even with the current level cap.

A cosmetic level is really not that different from the "rank" in PvP, which is also mostly a measure of how much time you play.

Good point about the "rank" I didnt consider that.. probably because my rank aint that great.. maybe if it would be easyer to view other peoples rank?

It seems to me that you cant really find out much information about the people around you.. I dont even think you can tell what the name of someones guild is.

you cant really design your character so that it looks radically different from anyone else either..

So, there just isnt any individuality in GW!

yes, it increases obnoxious levels but this is what spurs people on.. gets them motivated.. increases competition.

Even if there is no individuality for you character ... there isnt even anything to make your GUILD seem special... yes, you can fight in pvp raise your ranks etc.. but I never take any notice of any guild names let alone their rating, so why would anyone pay much attention to ours?.. its balanced so well that it takes a very long time for new players to get caught up in the competative side to GW

IF ONLY there was something, even something cosmetic (like badges) that made you feel like more than just 'another player' or 'another guild' then the games attention span would be much longer.... after all, its the only reason why games like City of Heroes are so popular.. the game mechanics in that are dead simple nothing compared to GW.. but in that game you have a chance to make yourself look and act unique.. people will pay £8 a month for that..

I personally think its this comple lack of individuality/uniqueness for guild and character as the reason for the short attention span, its been nearly two months, and GW players are dropping like flies, and the negativity on the forums is getting thicker. Its got to be more than 'gaming features' the causes this.

The Snowman.

(damn, didnt realise I typed that much... this job is REALLY boring)